Saturday, September 17, 2005
Almost But Not Quite...
Adrian Warnock is blogging about Holy Spirit Baptism again. He and I have had a bit of discussion about this before. In this post he mostly passes on a lot of source material he is developing on the subject. He begins this way
Adrain does a wonderful job earlier in his post of defending his assertions scripturally, but here I see no such back up. Save for the the Acts account of Pentecost, I see no evidence of a conscious and separate experience marking receipt of the Holy Spirit. Further I see no evidence that such an event will "usually" be accompanied with tongues or prophecy. I Corinthians contains large portions that very much work to downplay tongues, and further work to give equal and important place to other gifts granted by the Holy Spirit.
Why indeed if "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." would this experience of which Adrian speaks not be just as readily accompanied by an outbreak of floor sweeping for those gifted with service, or accounting for those gifted with administration.
In disagreeing with Adrian here I want to point out that I do not deny the reality of other person's experiences. I think God will manifest Himself in ways imagined and as of yet unimagined. I am sure this is a blessing to those who have had it.
What I have a problem with and challenge is the idea of this as a universal or near universal experience, or as even a "preferable" experience for most individuals. This is a unique and wonderful way for some to experience the Almighty. But for others it may not be.
We all, when we experience something wonderful, wish to share it with others, and hope for them the same. As a person schooled in science, I believe I experience God in ways somewhat unique. I can look at His creation and see Him in evidence in the detail and intricate working of that creation in ways that others, not so trained or inclined, do not share. I often wish that they could. Many are the times that I have begun to explain to someone the wonders of nuclear fusion as that which lights the stars in the sky on a beautiful night in the wilderness -- only to have them look at me with a bemused tolerance that soon dips into utter boredom. I want so bad for them to see what I see and to know God in the way that I know Him -- but they cannot, nor will they ever. Not because they do not know God intimately, but because the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to them in an entirely different, but equally valuable fashion.
I am happy for anyone that has had the experience Adrain describes, and I thank God for their experience. But I think we do ourselves a disservice, as the body of Christ, when we attempt to universalize that experience. If nothing else we open the door for false experiences for those that are not so inclined, and that is indeed the evil one's playground.
Just to kick of with, I believe that the HS is given:Can't really argue with him there. I think his point about "print on a page" sort of overlooks the fact that Jesus is the Word, but I understand and agree with the point he is trying to make, so I won't nit-pick. Later on though, Adrian says this
1. To assure us of salvation
2. To empower us to live godly lives since, "PRINT ON A PAGE CAN NEVER MAKE US HOLY ON ITS OWN."
3. To make us more evangelistic (cf the boldness of Acts 2)
4. To give us gifts
As an outward testimony to the reality of what has happened, God pours out his Holy Spirit on believers that seek him for such a blessing. Receiving the Holy Spirit is a conscious, real experience that is usually accompanied by gifts of the Spirit such as tongues and/or prophecy.Here's where I have a problem. First of all, I absolutely agree that "As an outward testimony to the reality of what has happened, God pours out his Holy Spirit..." where I begin to have a problem is when he describes it as a "conscious, real experience that is usually accompanied by gifts of the Spirit such as tongues and/or prophecy."
Adrain does a wonderful job earlier in his post of defending his assertions scripturally, but here I see no such back up. Save for the the Acts account of Pentecost, I see no evidence of a conscious and separate experience marking receipt of the Holy Spirit. Further I see no evidence that such an event will "usually" be accompanied with tongues or prophecy. I Corinthians contains large portions that very much work to downplay tongues, and further work to give equal and important place to other gifts granted by the Holy Spirit.
Why indeed if "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." would this experience of which Adrian speaks not be just as readily accompanied by an outbreak of floor sweeping for those gifted with service, or accounting for those gifted with administration.
In disagreeing with Adrian here I want to point out that I do not deny the reality of other person's experiences. I think God will manifest Himself in ways imagined and as of yet unimagined. I am sure this is a blessing to those who have had it.
What I have a problem with and challenge is the idea of this as a universal or near universal experience, or as even a "preferable" experience for most individuals. This is a unique and wonderful way for some to experience the Almighty. But for others it may not be.
We all, when we experience something wonderful, wish to share it with others, and hope for them the same. As a person schooled in science, I believe I experience God in ways somewhat unique. I can look at His creation and see Him in evidence in the detail and intricate working of that creation in ways that others, not so trained or inclined, do not share. I often wish that they could. Many are the times that I have begun to explain to someone the wonders of nuclear fusion as that which lights the stars in the sky on a beautiful night in the wilderness -- only to have them look at me with a bemused tolerance that soon dips into utter boredom. I want so bad for them to see what I see and to know God in the way that I know Him -- but they cannot, nor will they ever. Not because they do not know God intimately, but because the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to them in an entirely different, but equally valuable fashion.
I am happy for anyone that has had the experience Adrain describes, and I thank God for their experience. But I think we do ourselves a disservice, as the body of Christ, when we attempt to universalize that experience. If nothing else we open the door for false experiences for those that are not so inclined, and that is indeed the evil one's playground.
