Blogotional

The Reformed/Charismatic split discussion continues apace. Miscellanies on the Gospel is the place to go to keep up on everything about it, including some great resource links. Speaking of Rob, he has quite graciously agreed with my post of yesterday taking issue with one of his posts. Although I must say it probably has nothing to do with the strength of my argument and more to do with the fact that I got seconded by Jollyblogger.

Believe it or not there as been some good stuff to read in the Godblogosphere that is not related to this discussion. Of course, after reading them I decided to tie them into it anyway. The first is from Tod Bolsinger in a post aptly named They'll Know We are Christians by Our FIGHTS. (We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord, we are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord...ah,er, excuse me, '70's flashback) Anyway, Tod said this

What do we do with those believers who aren't acting like believers? What do we do with Christians who are acting profoundly unchristian? What do we do when the church that is meant to be the Kingdom of heaven embodied on earth is so damnably disappointing?

In Matthew 7:1-12, we learn that we DON'T Judge, and we DON'T tolerate, we talk. We confront. Humbly and prayerfully, yes, but we do confront.

And this is, in my opinion, the gaping sin of omission of our time and both the world and the church suffer for it. [emphasis added]

This greatly echoes David who said

There is such a thing as heresy out there and it needs to be called such.

Read what Tod has to say on Christian confrontation, it's a good message as this discussion moves forward.

The other interesting "unrelated" read is at Broken Messenger. Brad's writing about humility and confession.

Another day of godly sorrow is upon me. Today, I am again lamenting over the weeds of my heart. In turning to God's Word for comfort, I am drawing encouragement from Hebrews 12. Please permit me to share a few thoughts in response to this passage:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. - Hebrews 12:1-4

I lament, in spite of the encouragement of the author. Though I do doubt that anyone can know the full depth of their own depravity, I am beginning to see some of the depth of my own sin: the imperfect motivations, the constant rising of the old man within when I take my eyes off Christ and of my desperate need for a Savior when compared to God's perfect law.

Brad has, unwittingly I think, hit on precisely the problem that most frequently manifests itself with "untamed" charasmatism, one tends to become so drunk with the overwhelming feeling of the Spirit, that one loses their sense of depravity and imperfectness. The gifts must be rooted in an almost overwhelming sense of humility.

One word keeps coming to my mind as I read and think about all of this and that word is certainty. I have known charismatics who were certain they spoke for God, in tongues or in English, they knew they could heal. Such people scare me, and as I said yesterday, I think they profane God's name.

But I also know some people that have the gift of tongues, but I only know it because I asked them. And when I asked them they were quite hesitant to answer, feeling that what they experienced appeared to be tongues as described in scripture, but were never quite certain. Such people I often make common cause with.

Prophecy, and to some extent healing, are the gifts that I find most problematic. Let's talk about prophecy some more. Yesterday, Adrian Warnock said this about David's post

Jollyblogger seems stuck with the idea that prophecy is about perfect revelations we cant question. How this fits with the biblical notion of NT prophecy as fallible to be "tested" and which gives incomplete knowledge I simply don't get. Funnily enough, the charismatic will often say "God didn't say that to you" to a wacko just the same as a cessationist.

I'm not sure David is stuck on that idea. David and I were both not discussing prophecy in, what I at least, consider to be the biblical sense. We were discussing people that claim a certain and specific authority in making prophetic proclamations.

I touched on how I define prophecy in my original post on this discussion. Here's another definition from the international Standard Bible Encyclopedia

It is evident that the functions of the prophet must sometimes have crossed those of the apostle, and so we find Paul himself described as a prophet long after he had been called to the apostleship <Acts 13:1>. And yet there was a fundamental distinction. While the apostle, as we have seen, was one "sent forth" to the unbelieving world, the prophet was a minister to the believing church <1 Cor 14:4,22>. Ordinarily his message was one of "edification, and exhortation, and consolation" <1 Cor 14:3>.

The line between genuine prophecy, which really is just good preaching, and the kind of prophecy that David and I were both decrying is, as Adrian points out, the phrase "God told me," or worse "God told me to tell you." What Adrian fails to realize, I think, is how many people who proudly claim the title charismatic cross that line on a regular basis. Maybe they don't see it as much in the UK?

The first time I ever discussed this issue with Adrian, he defined "charismatic" simply as someone who believe the Holy Spirit still bestows gifts today -- in other words, not a cessasionist. That, frankly, is the first time I ever heard that definition. Until that discussion, charismatic was a word reserved precisely for the fire-breathing, God-profaning, convinced-of-their-own-status-as God's-exclusive-mouthpiece types that David and I were both skewering yesterday.

Jollyblogger has another post that seems to send the discussion in the right direction. He and I seem to be close to on the same wavelength here. He is taking the idea of "providence" and looking at its ramifications in terms of God's continuing efforts to "uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, " - quoting the Westminster Confession, as distinct from revelation. David is here making, I believe, a distinction very similar to the one I made between "apostolic authority" and "signs and wonders."

In the meantime, Adrian keeps challenging cessasionists to come up with a scriptural arguement. I think before that can be done, we really need to settle the issue of what it is preceisely that ceased, which is, I think where David is going. I want to offer a challenge to the charismatics and that is to make a scriptural arguement for the continuance of revelatory authority.