Friday, May 19, 2006
OK, Now I Really Am Confused
Challies reponds to the critics of his criticism of Joe Carter by discussing church discipline. He says
I really like what Andy Jackson had to say on this issue
As far as I am concerned here there are two really important salient points. One, absent surety about who is in and who is out, how I designate someone is primarily a matter of how I can best appeal to them. If Andrew Sullivan wishes to self-designate as a Christian, particularly given the alienation from most Christians he is already experiencing, then to declare him outside the fold will serve only to further alienate him and likely prevent me, or any other Christian soul from any sort of useful dialogue with him, thus removing one tool from God's possible arsenal to reach this man. Of course, the man should not be allowed in positions of authority or leadership, but he is making his arguments in a secular, not a church setting.
The Belgic Confession is not among the confessional documents of my particular faith, so I cannot claim much knowledge of it, thus I will not attempt to argue its merits, or the merits of arguments made based upon it. I will; however, try to describe briefly what I think the role of the institutional church is.
The institutions of faith are tools, that is all they are. A tool useful for managing the true church, which is the collection of believers, but those institutions are not in and of themselves, the true church.
I've been quoting The Screwtape Letters a lot lately (happens when you are teaching a class on a book) and I think this quote from letter 18 is an appropriate way to end this post
Related Tags: profession of faith, brotherhood, confession
Were I to criticize my article, I would probably point out that very few churches really do practice proper church discipline...So, in essence, what Tim appears to be saying is that only those who are subject to a true church can be assumed to be my Christian brethren and there bascially are almost no true churches left (after all, "very few churches really do practice proper church discipline"). Therefore, I am forced to conclude that I really can't assume anyone is my Christian brother, myself most especially, because my denomination is downright awful at church discipline.
[...]
While not all confessions included church discipline as one of the marks, where absent this was assumed as being integral to the proper administration of the sacraments, for they are to withheld from those who are engaged in gross sins. Luther, Melanchthon, Calvin and Cramner, for example, all agreed on these marks.
Church discipline is an area that is largely overlooked in the contemporary church, yet is one that is necessary for a church to be a true church and to be a healthy church.
I really like what Andy Jackson had to say on this issue
The life application of my comments are not always easy. Why? Because as humans we are limited and can't read the hearts of men and women. This ability is left totally to God. Remember, Jesus does exhort us in the parable of the net to ultimately leave the "who is in and who is out" of the kingdom of God to the eschatological judgement of the all-knowing and perfect One.Since we can't know, why should I assume anything? Absent knowledge from any other source, do I really have an option other than to accept a person at their profession? I am sure we all know the old cliche about what we assume.
As far as I am concerned here there are two really important salient points. One, absent surety about who is in and who is out, how I designate someone is primarily a matter of how I can best appeal to them. If Andrew Sullivan wishes to self-designate as a Christian, particularly given the alienation from most Christians he is already experiencing, then to declare him outside the fold will serve only to further alienate him and likely prevent me, or any other Christian soul from any sort of useful dialogue with him, thus removing one tool from God's possible arsenal to reach this man. Of course, the man should not be allowed in positions of authority or leadership, but he is making his arguments in a secular, not a church setting.
The Belgic Confession is not among the confessional documents of my particular faith, so I cannot claim much knowledge of it, thus I will not attempt to argue its merits, or the merits of arguments made based upon it. I will; however, try to describe briefly what I think the role of the institutional church is.
The institutions of faith are tools, that is all they are. A tool useful for managing the true church, which is the collection of believers, but those institutions are not in and of themselves, the true church.
I've been quoting The Screwtape Letters a lot lately (happens when you are teaching a class on a book) and I think this quote from letter 18 is an appropriate way to end this post
Leave them to discuss whether 'Love', or patriotism, or celibacy, or candles on altars, or teetotalism, or education, are 'good' or 'bad'. Can't you see there's no answer? Nothing matters at all except the tendency of a given state of mind, in given circumstances, to move a particular patient at a particular moment nearer to the Enemy or nearer to us.This I know for sure - denying Andrew Sullivan's claim of faith moves him and a large contingent of his followers closer to our enemy. You see there is nothing less at stake here that Andrew Sullivan's eternal destination, I for one would like the opportunity to help him reach the better alternative. Or, are we really the don't-care-about-evangelism-Calvinists we are always accused of being?
Related Tags: profession of faith, brotherhood, confession
