Wednesday, May 04, 2005
"Cat Amongst The Pigeons"
That is how Unveiled Face described my questioning response to Adrian Warnock's post on Charles Finney's description of his encounter with the Holy Spirit. Adrian echoed my questions and Scotwise posted one of his excellent bios on Christians of old. Plenty of commenters everywhere.
I really like Unveiled Face's paraphrase of JI Packer -- a Blogotional favorite. Most people have rightly surmised that my question had an agenda -- I suppose it is time to reveal it.
I, like Packer, would eschew the term "charismatic" but believe in phenomena like that described by Finney. Adrian and I had a conversation some time ago on the proper use of that word.
I think the key to the whole matter lies in I Corinthians 14. In that passage, Paul addresses specifically the gift of tongues, which is why I tried to link tongues and Holy Spirit baptism in my questions post. Regardless, I think that the principles that Paul examines in that chapter can apply to a "tongueless" Holy Spirit baptism.
The comments all around seem to confirm my suspicion. All comments that do not simply deny the phenomena point out that it is not an objectifiable experience. Now while I will not deny its reality based on that, I will say it greatly limits its application. As Paul says
I do not think that, beyond acknowledging it's existence, it can rise to the level of "doctrine." Some people have it, some people don't. It is a gift that God grants to those He sees fit, and as with all such gifts based solely on grace, not worth. It is something to be discussed in the quiet of the prayer closet with the closest of spiritual kin, it is not for public worship or display. It is to be not to be urged, and should be denied only when it bears egregiously evil fruit and is clearly from the evil one. Generally when it is not public, it is not from the evil one.
The lessons I share here I learned the very hard way. In my youth a pentecostal revivalist came to town and set up camp. He ended up staying and founding a congregation. Many of my friends became involved. The least egregious thing that came from that was that one of my best friends, someone with whom I had shared much of my formative faith, told me that I was not a Christian because I had had no such experience.
In the more egregious category my mother's closest friend refused medical treatment for cancer and died. That same woman's daughter some years later similarly refused medical help and gave birth to a seriously damaged child because her labor lasted 3 days and the child was beaten hideously against her hips. The child died within a few years of birth.
This cult, built almost entirely on the offer of Holy Spirit baptism, was a thing of pure evil. Eventually the head of the cult was jailed for tax evasion -- he'd been ripping off his congregants for years.
I consider it a great blessing that God has preserved by belief in the phenomena in the face of the evil that I saw "it" create.
Again, I think Unveiled Face hit a very good tone. God works in far more ways than we will ever understand, including this one. But if He has chosen to work in your life that way, it is best you keep it to yourself and enjoy it manifestly. God may not chose to grant it to someone else, you are no better or worse than them, you just have a different blessing. They lack nothing because they do not have it.
What blesses you will not bless another. For you such a phenomena may be a cause for great joy, for another it will be nothing but a burden, or worse yet a gross temptation.
We always do God a great disservice when we attempt to say "He will always work this way," but in this case, I think you do more than a mere disservice, you can create mischief, and even evil. If you want this experience, then I urge you to pray for it, privately and urgently, but I also share the caution of Paul
UPDATE 9:40AM
Bryans Nonesense shares his personal testimony on his Holy Spirit baptism. For clarification, I do not disagree with anything in that post, I would however point out that it is a personally useful thing and not something for the edification of the greater body of Christ. In that context, I think this ia a fine thing.
I really like Unveiled Face's paraphrase of JI Packer -- a Blogotional favorite. Most people have rightly surmised that my question had an agenda -- I suppose it is time to reveal it.
I, like Packer, would eschew the term "charismatic" but believe in phenomena like that described by Finney. Adrian and I had a conversation some time ago on the proper use of that word.
I think the key to the whole matter lies in I Corinthians 14. In that passage, Paul addresses specifically the gift of tongues, which is why I tried to link tongues and Holy Spirit baptism in my questions post. Regardless, I think that the principles that Paul examines in that chapter can apply to a "tongueless" Holy Spirit baptism.
The comments all around seem to confirm my suspicion. All comments that do not simply deny the phenomena point out that it is not an objectifiable experience. Now while I will not deny its reality based on that, I will say it greatly limits its application. As Paul says
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the churchThe phenomena of Holy Spirit baptism is a deeply personal experience between God and believer -- and them only.
I do not think that, beyond acknowledging it's existence, it can rise to the level of "doctrine." Some people have it, some people don't. It is a gift that God grants to those He sees fit, and as with all such gifts based solely on grace, not worth. It is something to be discussed in the quiet of the prayer closet with the closest of spiritual kin, it is not for public worship or display. It is to be not to be urged, and should be denied only when it bears egregiously evil fruit and is clearly from the evil one. Generally when it is not public, it is not from the evil one.
The lessons I share here I learned the very hard way. In my youth a pentecostal revivalist came to town and set up camp. He ended up staying and founding a congregation. Many of my friends became involved. The least egregious thing that came from that was that one of my best friends, someone with whom I had shared much of my formative faith, told me that I was not a Christian because I had had no such experience.
In the more egregious category my mother's closest friend refused medical treatment for cancer and died. That same woman's daughter some years later similarly refused medical help and gave birth to a seriously damaged child because her labor lasted 3 days and the child was beaten hideously against her hips. The child died within a few years of birth.
This cult, built almost entirely on the offer of Holy Spirit baptism, was a thing of pure evil. Eventually the head of the cult was jailed for tax evasion -- he'd been ripping off his congregants for years.
I consider it a great blessing that God has preserved by belief in the phenomena in the face of the evil that I saw "it" create.
Again, I think Unveiled Face hit a very good tone. God works in far more ways than we will ever understand, including this one. But if He has chosen to work in your life that way, it is best you keep it to yourself and enjoy it manifestly. God may not chose to grant it to someone else, you are no better or worse than them, you just have a different blessing. They lack nothing because they do not have it.
What blesses you will not bless another. For you such a phenomena may be a cause for great joy, for another it will be nothing but a burden, or worse yet a gross temptation.
We always do God a great disservice when we attempt to say "He will always work this way," but in this case, I think you do more than a mere disservice, you can create mischief, and even evil. If you want this experience, then I urge you to pray for it, privately and urgently, but I also share the caution of Paul
Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues,...When you pray for this, also pray for the greater things.
UPDATE 9:40AM
Bryans Nonesense shares his personal testimony on his Holy Spirit baptism. For clarification, I do not disagree with anything in that post, I would however point out that it is a personally useful thing and not something for the edification of the greater body of Christ. In that context, I think this ia a fine thing.
